AMY GALLO: You’re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Gallo.
What’s on your work wish list? Do you want to go to a conference or training? Are you hoping for a higher performance rating or salary or job title? Is there a project you’d like to lead? Or maybe you need an extension on a deadline? When we really want something from our boss or a colleague, the prospect of them saying no is sometimes enough to deter us from even asking in the first place.
Yet, as Allison Fragale shared in an episode earlier this season, most of us underestimate how often people will say yes. In case you didn’t hear that episode, called “To Get What You Want, Be Both Assertive and Warm,” let me catch you up real quick. Alison is a professor of organizational behavior at the University of North Carolina’s Business School. The book she wrote is Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve. Now, her main argument is that women can and should embrace warmth and assertiveness to build respect, elevate their status, and gain power.
The warmth part often comes easy, like building good relationships, taking into account people’s priorities and constraints, helping them out. That’s how the world typically raises us: to be considerate and giving. The advocating for ourselves part doesn’t come as easy for many of us. It definitely takes practice, which Alison likes to fast-track into a habit through an exercise she calls “collecting nos.”
ALISON FRAGALE: It’s something that I started using in my negotiation and influence classes when I was teaching MBA students to get them to go out and push the boundaries of their skills in the real world. And we often think negotiation, try to get a yes, but this assignment is trying to get nos.
So, the goal is make 10 different asks of 10 different people. So, don’t just go to the same one person and ask them 10 times. Ten different people until you get 10 nos. And it doesn’t have to be the word “no”; it has to be the person that’s essentially saying to you in some way, shape, or form, This is not happening.
Every time you get a no, you can put it on the list. Most of the time people think, I will be done with this exercise by noon because people tell me no all the time; it’s going to be really easy. Uh, it takes people a lot longer than they expect because they get a lot more yeses, and one of the things they start to realize is that they can be advocating for more things in their life than they had previously.
AMY GALLO: Several Women at Work listeners did the exercise and kept track of their asks and the yeses and nos they got, and four of them volunteered to share their experience so that we could all hear how the advice plays out when real women take it. As you’re about to hear, collecting those nos brought about surprises, insight, some discomfort and growth.
After my conversation with them, I check back in with Alison, and then you’ll hear from my teenage daughter, Harper, who did the exercise along with us. But first, here’s my conversation with our four listeners.
All right, Cherie, I want to start with you. Give us who you are, what your job is, and maybe share one or two things you asked for as part of this exercise and what happened.
CHERIE: Yeah, for sure. I coach and mentor student leaders who are working in higher education. A couple of the things that I asked for: I asked to speak at an event, I asked for people to come and speak at a conference I was doing, I put forward proposals. I just kept going, and I actually failed the assignment. I didn’t achieve all of my nos and mostly because I couldn’t handle the number of yeses I had received.
AMY GALLO: I know, Kumuthini, you also did not get to 10 nos, but tell us a little bit about who you are and some of the things you asked for.
KUMUTHINI: Sure. So, my name is Kumuthini Raman, I work with KPMG, I am a learning professional. I primarily work with directors and partners here in my firm to help them build their leadership skills. The kind of job that I am into, it is always a giving job, I’m sharing something, giving them something, so people are—at least they tend to be nicer. So, when I go ask for something, they’re like, Yeah, sure, I’ll help you. Yeah, sure, I’ll do it. So, I really had to struggle to find the no scenario.
So, what I did is I started looking for nos both in my professional life at work, but also personally. I had moved into a new neighborhood very recently, and I like badminton, I play badminton, and I wanted a community to play with. And here I found out there were a couple of groups that were into playing badminton on a weekly basis regularly, and I really wanted to be a part of that group. And I went to ask them, and they said no because I’m a girl.
CHERIE: You’re going to have to teach me how to play, but—
FELICITY: We’re going to find you a badminton team.
AMY GALLO: Felicity, let’s hear from you just on whatever you feel comfortable sharing about yourself and a few of the you asked for.
FELICITY: Yes. My name’s Felicity, so I’m an engineer by training. I’ve asked quite a lot of things in my personal life and in my professional life, and I did get more yeses than I necessarily anticipated, but I also noticed that there were quite a lot of nos where I wasn’t necessarily expecting to find them, and a lot of my nos were actually an initial yes, but then just didn’t get followed up, and I’ll come back to that later.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Suzanne, tell us about you and a few things you asked for.
SUZANNE: Yeah, so I’m Suzanne, I am a leader in higher education. I lead an innovation unit at my institution, and a lot of the work that I do involves collaborating across different teams. A couple of the nos were with teams that I would like to collaborate more with, teams that I am trying to advance some kind of a significant initiative. And one of the situations was just assuming that I was going to get a yes and then it became a no, really quickly it was a no, and that was kind of an unwelcome one.
Another case, like Felicity said, something that sounded like a yes, but I’ve interacted enough with this other person that I could sense that there was a no underlying the yes. So those were a couple of the interesting examples that I’ll be happy to share more about.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, what was the thing you assumed was a yes but was an immediate no?
SUZANNE: Yeah, so I was collaborating with another team, and I had been asked to lead a certain aspect of the project. It is a very big project, but I was put in charge of a particular element of it, and I came up with a plan of how I was going to do this, and I was intentionally communicating about it just to make sure everyone understood, you know, We’re all in this together, but here’s the work stream that I’m leading, and here’s my plan to do that. And an individual who has authority over some aspects of this work said to me, No, we don’t want to do it that way. This other team member is going to take the lead on that instead.
And I was unhappy because I had put a lot of thought and actually effort into how I wanted to take that work stream forward, so it was surprising and unwelcome to hear all of a sudden, like, No, that’s not happening. We did have a conversation about it, and I guess I appreciated hearing this person’s viewpoint. And in the end, I guess I decided it’s not worth fighting over this, so I said, Fine, go ahead. So…
AMY GALLO: Did anyone else assume they would get a yes and then got a no about something? Felicity?
FELICITY: I didn’t get things where I was expecting it to be a yes but it was a no, but I did get a couple of responses where it was not quite a conditional yes, but a, I don’t think this is the best use of your time, which was quite helpful because from my perspective, fantastic. Like, if you get that feedback of, This is a no because, that means that you can take action, you can improve things, and you can make it a yes next time. It’s when you get the no, and then they just sort of ignore you or block you or that kind of thing—
AMY GALLO: Or ghost you.
FELICITY: Yes.
AMY GALLO: Because several of you had asks where you never even heard back, right?
FELICITY: Yeah. I mean, I had six of them. That was more than I expected.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, that is a lot. And I wondered, like, what was it about your situation where you got so many non-responses?
FELICITY: So I, just out of curiosity, I did look to see if there are any patterns. So, in person, I tend to get yeses. Those then generally turn into a no over email or over text. The other thing that was interesting was I got five nos from women, four out of five were, No because, and then we got to an action that actually we were both happy with. Two out of the seven men were nos that were clear, and then we got to an action that we were happy with, and five of them were just ignored. So yeah—
AMY GALLO: Interesting.
FELICITY: —definitely a pattern there, but I think the in-person versus the over-email bit, yeah, that was the strongest pattern for me.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. One thing I’m taking away from all of your experiences is not just how great it is that we’re asking—I’m having a delightful time hearing about all these asks because I’m like, Oh my gosh, yes, we’re asking—but I also think one of my takeaways is that we need to teach people how to say no.
There’s such a difference between a No because, and let’s talk about what you can do instead and then just a No, and I’m ignoring you. Or even Kumuthini, thinking about your badminton experience, like, No, you’re a girl. What? There are so many ways in which I think we need to train people to be clearer about why they’re saying no, and then follow up of, What can someone do instead?
Did anyone else notice any patterns in the same way that Felicity did for yourself?
KUMUTHINI: I think some things that Felicity said really resonated with me, especially in terms of how you ask the question and what modality you choose to ask the question. I’ve experienced that a lot, especially for the kind of different programs that we run, and we want to always understand what’s working and what’s not working and what do we do for the next time. And when I’m able to reach out to people in person, I’m able to get their time, their attention, and they’re willing to share their thoughts, their experience. If I chose a different modality, let’s say I write to them on email, it’s a yes but a no. I mean, it’s a no, very wordy no, it sounds like a yes, but it’s not a yes at all, right? That’s how they write it. They’re very politely in all words saying, “I don’t have the time. I would love to if I wanted to,” and things like that.
And the other thing I’ve also noticed is the personal touch versus the group effect. So, if I ask, let’s say, a bunch of 20 people, even if it’s in person, to say, “Is anybody willing to stay back five minutes longer and share with me how you experienced it?” And everybody assumes somebody’s going to stay, and then it’s this other person’s responsibility to stay, and then everybody leaves. But if I picked a person and said, “Would you stay back? Would you mind just five minutes? Would you give me five minutes?” And they’re like, “Sure.” I think that how you ask the question, what modality do you choose to ask the question, are there more people, are there less? I think all of that plays into getting a yes and a no. And I think timing is quite important as well, yeah.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, we did an episode about asking for help with Heidi Grant, who’s a social psychologist, and she did talk about the difference between asking via email, which in some ways gives people an easier out rather than asking face to face.
I actually find, again, as someone who gets asked to do things quite a bit, I find it easier to say no in person because then I’m not as worried about damaging the relationship. I can say no with an explanation with the appropriate body language and facial expressions so that I can make sure they understand why I am saying no as opposed to email, which I’m afraid when you talked about those wordy nos that sound like a yes, I’m like, Oh gosh, I probably did that yesterday. You know, it’s just so—you try to fill the space, the discomfort of saying no with something that sounds nice, but it’s just confusing.
Go ahead, Suzanne.
SUZANNE: I wanted to add an additional pattern that I noticed, which was I found that some of the best no interactions that I had were when I really was working with someone, and we were “on the same side of the table” against a shared problem. So, there were a couple of times, for example, I was working with my boss on designing an offsite half day retreat kind of a thing for our leadership team, and I asked him for a resource and he said no, but what it led to was a conversation about the purpose of our offsite. And it was great. I mean, it wasn’t just a, No, go away, it was a, No, because here’s what I have in mind. And so I realized I needed to check my own understanding, and it turned into a really good conversation, so I have better clarity now around what we’re trying to do here and when it will be appropriate to bring in a resource later.
A similar situation happened with a professor I was working with on a different innovation that we wanted to try, and they were like, Well, I don’t quite see this, but together we came up with a much better idea. And so it wasn’t saying no to me as an individual, it was more saying, No, not to this idea, but how about we get to this other idea together?
AMY GALLO: I like that seeing it as when is it a rejection of you versus the idea.
I realized I haven’t shared my exercise with you, and this came during a time I was doing a ton of international travel, so most of my requests or asks were around upgrading my hotel room, changing my schedule, being able to arrive late to something, and I had a really hard time getting nos, and to the point where I started this exercise actually at a hotel in Sydney, Australia, and by the end I was in a top-floor room looking over the Darling Harbor in Sydney, and the concierge became my best friend, like, we would hug in the morning, because I had used Alison’s advice of, there’s no reason I shouldn’t ask, there’s no reason I shouldn’t be assertive that I didn’t like that my room looked over a highway or that it was particularly noisy because it was near the restaurant. But I didn’t ask to be on the top floor looking over the harbor either, and yet the way on which I asked was warm and thoughtful and said, “I know you guys are so busy because of this conference. Is there any way to just see a different room?” And I did have a moment where I was looking, one morning woke up to this beautiful sunrise over the harbor and thought, Thanks, Alison. This is just amazing.
And even things like the call time for one of my speeches was earlier than I thought I needed to be there, and normally I would’ve been like, Whatever, I’m sure they have a reason, but because I was doing this exercise, I said, “Is there any way I can show up just half an hour later? It’ll give me a little bit more space in my schedule” And they said, “Sure, no problem.” And I got to the point where I started brainstorming more things I could ask for because I got a little bit, like, high on the experience of, like, What else can I get?
And I had the same problem you had, Cherie, which is that I was starting to ask for things, I was like, I’m not even sure I can do this or I have time to follow through on this. And so I started holding back for asking for things because I was like, Wait, I have to manage my capacity here.
I mean, it’s such a great exercise setup because you sort of win no matter what, at least that’s my interpretation. Did you all feel the same way with it, that you felt like you were getting something from it, whether you got a yes or a no to the question? Suzanne.
SUZANNE: I felt like I was going to win no matter what, either because I would get the yes, but also because it was just a really great way to be thoughtful about what I’m asking for, how I phrase it. Tracking that on the sheet was just a real win-win.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Felicity?
FELICITY: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think it was a lot easier to ask for things when I knew I was doing that as part of an exercise, which is slightly odd because why wouldn’t I be happy to ask for things just for me? Like, why am I happy you’re asking for them? Because I’ve got a nice document where I can tick it off and say, That’s another no for the list.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways it’s gamifying it, and it did cut through, for me it cut through a lot of that self-talk of like, Ugh, don’t be the hotel guest who asked for an upgrade. Don’t be the diva speaker who asks for extra time, or whatever. I could actually remove that and realize how false that was if I thought, Oh, I have a purpose in asking.
Kumuthini, did you have something to say?
KUMUTHINI: Yeah, yeah, very much on the same lines. There’s a lot of limiting thoughts, at least in my head, to say that, Oh, don’t be this person, and there’s a certain kind of fear to deal with the no. It probably isn’t that big a deal when it actually happens, but then I dramatize it in my head so much that I am so scared to ask for it, so I don’t ask for it.
AMY GALLO: And did you find that the nos were easier to handle than you worried they would be?
KUMUTHINI: Yes.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. How did others react to the nos or handle them? Cherie?
CHERIE: I was expecting it to get harder as I asked. I was like, Okay, I’m going to ask and then that’s going to hurt me and I’m going to be devastated, I’m going to have to work up all my courage to go and ask again. But that didn’t happen. In fact, it actually got a lot easier because I was like, I’m not devastated, so the next no was like, Oh, okay, I can handle that, and then the next no, was like, Yeah, no big deal. It was so much less impactful long-term. It still hurt, but it healed more quickly than I anticipated.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, yeah. Suzanne?
SUZANNE: Yeah, I agree that it doesn’t destroy us. We discover that we’re more resilient than we thought maybe. However, I will add that one of the nos that really bothers me are the, it sounds like a yes but it’s actually a no. And I think—
AMY GALLO: We’re all nodding.
SUZANNE: I think a couple of people have said like they said yes, but then it never really happened, and that really does rub me the wrong way.
AMY GALLO: Can I ask why, Suzanne? I mean, I have my own feeling why, but why for you is that so hard?
SUZANNE: Because it feels sort of dishonest. Like, I’d rather someone just tell me and let’s talk about it. Because some of it I felt like was maybe a power differential where I had more perceived formal power than the other person, and so they didn’t feel like they could come right out and say no. But for the most part, I didn’t ask for things that were sort of, like, personal favors or I didn’t even ask, Can I have an extension? on some request of me. It was more like, I want us to do this thing together, and here’s how I think we could proceed. Here’s something I would like us together to attack this shared problem. And when I hear a sort of, “Well, we’ll see,” or, “Yeah, we’ll have to figure that out,” or, “Oh, yeah, I agree, that’s a problem,” I felt irritated. And it made me think, okay, something that I want to work on is how can I build a bridge from something that sounds like a yes but is actually a no to a clearer answer and a promise perhaps, or an agreement that we’re going to keep working on this.
AMY GALLO: Felicity?
FELICITY: I would echo an awful lot of that. If you have a no where you are just ignored, it feels incredibly disrespectful. And that really, really annoyed me. And I think it would be interesting to understand how much of a regional difference there is potentially with this, because that’s something we have an awful lot of as English people. People are so polite, they don’t say no, they just, like, pussyfoot it around it.
AMY GALLO: Are you agreeing with that, Kumuthini?
KUMUTHINI: Yeah. So I am in London, but I’m not English, so I am from India. And I grew up there. So culturally, traditionally, the values all come from India for me; and my communication is deep-rooted there, and trying to unlearn and learn. We always thought to say polite nos, which is extremely confusing for people, isn’t it? And that’s something that I’m trying to unlearn and be a lot more, if it’s a no, just say no, or if it’s a yes or if it’s a question, just ask the question rather than trying to be nicer around all of those things.
Eight, 10 years before, I would’ve been very uncomfortable to say a no, and I would probably choose to say yes, because it is culturally not okay to say no, especially for women. We are told to not disagree, we are taught to not disagree. I’ve been brought up that way. It would’ve been extremely difficult for me to say no. And if I have to say no, I would find really weird reasons to back that up, and you would wonder what I’m even getting to. So yeah, it definitely has a lot of cultural effect, I think, at least from my experience.
AMY GALLO: Do you all think you’ll say no to others more clearly as a result of your experience? I see lots of nods. Someone tell me what they’re thinking. Cherie, go ahead.
CHERIE: Well, I’m in Canada, so I’m going to say weird things like, “Yeah, no.” [Laughter] But in all honesty, I absolutely have learned through this that no is a full sentence because respect requires that clarity.
AMY GALLO: Yes. Felicity?
FELICITY: I had written down that “no is a complete sentence” phrase as well, which by the way, was a Jane Fonda quote.
AMY GALLO: Oh, is it?
FELICITY: So, absolute icon. Yeah, so for me, I think “no is a complete sentence” has its place, but the nos that I found most helpful were ones that have context rather than just no. So I’ve done a load of nos, the more I realized how helpful it was, the more I was loving this.
AMY GALLO: Well, it sounds like we’re coming up with a hierarchy. There’s the yes that’s really a no is our least favorite, and then there’s the no, at least it’s clear, right? There’s an actual response no, and then there’s the no with the context, which to us is the most useful.
I do want to go back to Alison’s advice from our original episode and from her book, Likeable Badass, because part of this exercise is also finding out how to combine this warmth and assertiveness so the ask itself is assertive in some ways. Did you all think about how to ask in a way that was also warm? Suzanne.
SUZANNE: I was really fascinated by that aspect. And I have to say I was a little bit of two minds because it seemed like in some ways it could be kind of a typical advice that women would get, which is, “Don’t be too assertive. Make sure you add a sprinkling of warmth on everything.” And I know from feedback I’ve gotten that I sometimes land more on the assertive side of the spectrum and less on the warmth.
So, in my interactions, in my asks, for example, with my boss, one of the things I love about my boss is that I feel like he repeatedly lets me know that he finds me competent and also funny and warm, so I don’t worry so much about, Oh, he’s going to think I’m being overly assertive. So, in my asks with him, which a lot of it was just happening virtually on a Teams chat, I didn’t worry about it, I was just really straight to the point, Hey, I’d like this resource, got the no, we worked it out.
Again, there’s part of me, of course, I want to be approachable and understanding. What I really need to think about is how do I communicate the shared problem solving? Not so much the assertiveness of, I want this thing, but rather, Let’s see if this might be a solution to our shared problem. Here’s an idea.
AMY GALLO: Right. Even stating the shared problem—
SUZANNE: Right.
AMY GALLO: —up front: My intention is to solve the shared problem. Here’s what I need to do that, or here’s an idea that could help us do that. Did anyone else think about the warmth aspect?
KUMUTHINI: So, before I go into a conversation where I know I have to ask, I quickly prepare myself just what’s the context? What are they doing? What am I doing? Where are we at? What do they want? What do I want? Just to position this in a way that is appealing for them. And then I always clarify my intent, and I think the warmth comes from the intent. And then I always look at, what do they get from it? I am the one asking, but they are the one giving it, so what do they get? Am I even thoughtful about what do they get? And I always think about these three things, CIB, context, intent, and benefit. And it usually works out. If it doesn’t work out, it works out even better because they come up with something even better than what I had thought, what I had asked. And I was like, Ooh, wonderful. Let’s do what you’ve said. [Laughter]
AMY GALLO: I have to say this CIB, I’m writing it down as I can see some of the others are too, because most of my notes, and I didn’t share this earlier, but most of my notes were actually from my teenage daughter, who was also doing this exercise along with me. And as a parent, I often shortcut the request. I’m like, You’ll say yes because I’m the parent, or, You’ll say yes because you will understand why this is good for you. But that CIB, even understanding the context, stating my intention, why am I asking this and then how is this going to benefit? It’s so smart.
KUMUTHINI: Yeah. It’s worked best with my daughter than anybody else.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, I’ll to tell you, if you have daughters or kids and even people you mentor, for example, tell them to do this exercise. My daughter first day came home and was like, “I just got extra credit, and I didn’t have to take this test today because I asked if I could take it tomorrow.” And I said, Ooh, does that teacher think differently of you? I asked her that question, I said, “What do you think the teacher thinks?” And she said, “I think it actually really helped improve our relationship because we had a whole conversation about how I had—” because my daughter had started this class late, so she had missed out on this other extra credit opportunity before, so she said, “I actually think she understands me better because I asked for these things.”
For her, it was a rise in status. And I think about Alison’s whole point in this exercise and her whole point with Likeable Badass is improving our status. What did you all think? Do you think this exercise ended up improving your status?
KUMUTHINI: Yeah, I think 100%. A couple of things that I’ve noticed is, one, it improves your visibility. I think people suddenly start to notice you because you’re more vocal about your wants, what you need, they start to believe like, Oh, she’s up to something, let’s listen to her, and there’s suddenly more attention that’s given to what we are thinking, what we are saying. And I think that’s really useful.
And there’s a kind of domino effect off that because whatever I believe I am as a person at work, that I’m a leader, I lead, I take charge, I’m proactive, whatever I think I am, it doesn’t show up that way, probably because I’m not assertive, probably because I am not taking the bold steps to ask and say. And just because I’ve done that now, they see the way I see myself, and that’s exactly what I want. So, I think it’s definitely worked in my favor for me at least.
AMY GALLO: I haven’t thought about the exercise as a way to align your own perception of yourself with what others think of you, but that’s just sort of a profound result of this exercise as by putting yourself out there more, you’re letting people see more of who you are. Suzanne.
SUZANNE: I think that’s a great point, and I think that as we move into or advance in our leadership, acting like the leader that we want to be, there’s that great book Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader, and so being thoughtful about the things that we’re asking for, that’s a great way to give other people a window into what we care about, what we’re working on, what our direction is. I think it can be a really wonderful window acting that way, which then becomes the reality.
AMY GALLO: Thank you to the four of you so much for making the time. I know doing the exercise took a lot of time and effort, it’s clear you all took it very seriously. So thank you for that.
KUMUTHINI: Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. It was lovely to meet the rest of you.
SUZANNE: Likewise. Thank you so much for the opportunity, great conversation.
AMY GALLO: As you heard, doing the exercise tested our assumptions about people’s willingness to meet our wants and needs. We also crossed off lots of items on our wish lists, learned to fear rejection less, and gained status. After this conversation, I still had a few questions about what worked well, what didn’t, and what Alison thinks makes this exercise so impactful. So, she and I quickly checked in.
Alison, thank you so much for coming back to talk with us.
ALISON FRAGALE: Well, I thank you for coming up with this great idea to turn this exercise into an experience for your listeners and for inviting me back to do it.
AMY GALLO: Well, good. And all credit goes to our producer, Amanda, who was like, “We can turn this into an exercise, I bet listeners would do it.” And she was right. And obviously our listeners took so much away from it. I did want to ask you a couple things that people came up against.
You heard Suzanne said that the type of response that really bothered her was the one that sounds like a yes but it’s actually a no, and everyone else in that conversation completely agreed. I agree how that’s incredibly frustrating. I’d love to hear, how do you recommend we handle that kind of flip-flopping or even, I mean, I think Suzanne called it dishonesty when we get a yes that we suspect is either going to become a no or is actually truly a no?
ALISON FRAGALE: So, paraphrase and repeat is a great technique in all relationships. What I think I hear you saying is that you’d like to be able to help me, but this isn’t something that’s going to work at this time or whatever feels right. And the greatest way to get someone to talk to you is to misunderstand them and put the wrong words in their mouth. They can’t wait to correct you. So, by paraphrasing and repeating, you’ll either get it right and they’ll say, “Yes, that’s right,” or you’ll get it wrong, and they will be very quick to try to add more information to say that you’ve got it wrong. So that’s a technique I would always use in any kind of situation, not just a situation where you’ve heard a yes that you think might be a no.
AMY GALLO: Okay. And then the other thing people mentioned happened, and this was true for the people we spoke to, but also some of the people who we emailed with, is that people said yes and then ghosted, right? They said yes, and then they just sort of disappeared, they couldn’t get a follow-up. Any advice on, the phrase that came to mind was hunting people down, but that’s not what I mean, sort of getting people to follow through like we were talking about, but especially someone who just sort of you’ve lost contact with in some way?
ALISON FRAGALE: Yeah. I mean, I’ve had this happen to me. I can still think of examples where this happens, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why people ghosted. So I just think sometimes you just never get a satisfying answer and you just don’t know why.
But I think the same techniques apply, which is, when you’re live in a conversation, one of the things you want to hopefully control is the next move. So, as we’re ending this, to say, Okay, well what should happen next? And if it’s someone that maybe you don’t know very well or you’re not sure whether they’ll follow through, to put the next move on you and to say, “What I’m going to do is, I’m going to write to you or I’m going to do whatever at this moment, does that feel right to you?”
And so they can be your partner in saying what the next move is, but you at least get to have it be in your court. I think a lot of times we give it to the other person, which can be advantageous because then work is on their plate, not ours; but if it’s a person that you’re not sure you’re going to hear from or you have enough ways to stay in touch with, that could be risky because then they disappear and there’s nothing you can do.
The last-ditch effort is to figure out if there is a mutual connection that could reach out on your behalf if it’s really important. And I’ve tried that sometimes to say, Okay, who knows this person and might get a better response? And that way you can figure out what other things happen. Because for every person who just is irresponsible and ghosts, you know there’s all kinds of other legitimate reasons why people disappear. Something bad has happened in their life, they never got your email, they changed their email address, they lost their job, and now they’re in a different—you know, whatever. So, using a mutual person could be your last ditch effort to say, Hey, I know so-and-so has been trying to get in touch with you.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was a takeaway that Kumuthini shared, which she said the exercise ended up being a way to align her perception of herself as a leader with others’ perceptions of her. And what she meant by that was that she voicing what she wanted more, and in doing that, people were seeing her more as the leader she sees herself as. I was so touched by that and wondered if that’s something you had heard from this exercise as well.
ALISON FRAGALE: I haven’t heard it articulated as beautifully as that, but absolutely. The more people know what you want, the more they will give it to you, and the more they will see you as a person who will assert themselves, but will do it not just for selfish benefit, but also for the benefit of everybody.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Thank you. First of all, thank you again for writing such an amazing book, but thank you for setting us on this fun exercise, which has turned out to be a really great journey for everyone who did it.
ALISON FRAGALE: That’s because you have the best listeners.
AMY GALLO: We do have the best listeners, that is absolutely true.
Asking more freely and warmly for what I want is a skill I wish I’d developed when I was my daughter’s age. Harper’s 17, and she charmed me by joining in on Alison’s nos challenge. Then she outdid herself by volunteering to talk about how it went.
HARPER: I mean, I thought it would be fun. I also love the podcast. I like to be included.
AMY GALLO: [Laughter] You like when I talk about you?
HARPER: Yeah.
AMY GALLO: All right, so tell me, what did you ask for?
HARPER: Okay. A lot of it was extra credit from teachers. I asked my science teacher if I could get extra credit way past the due date for it, and she said yes.
AMY GALLO: And I was impressed that was your first ask because you had previously told me that she had said, no, you’re not getting the extra credit because you were late in the class and that was going to disqualify you.
HARPER: Totally.
AMY GALLO: So, what made you ask? What did you say?
HARPER: I went up to her after school and, I don’t know, I said, “I’ve been working really hard,” and how I really would like the extra credit. And she said yes.
AMY GALLO: Was there any pushback?
HARPER: She was like, “Hmm, we’ll see. Well, yeah, okay.” And then was like, “I’ll put it in right now.”
AMY GALLO: Right.
HARPER: And then a lot of it was also just asking my friends for favors, like, asking friends if they could take the bus to school instead of driving with me so that I could take someone else. And those were all yeses too.
AMY GALLO: Those were all yeses.
HARPER: I only got two nos and both of them were over text.
AMY GALLO: And what were those?
HARPER: I asked friends, we have college visits, colleges come to my school to talk to us, and I asked them if they would come to a college visit, and it was just me there, it was just me and an admissions counselor. So that’s really interesting, all of my yeses were in person, and all of my nos over text.
AMY GALLO: That is interesting. That’s actually the women who did this exercise as well had similar experiences, although one of the things they said was that their yeses in person sometimes turned out to be a no. Like, they sensed that people just said yes because they were looking them in the eye. Did any of your yeses turn out to actually be nos?
HARPER: Yes actually, now that you’re saying this. Just the other day I asked my friend if she would go to the arts giving with me.
AMY GALLO: Right, which is like an after-school event.
HARPER: And she said yes and then didn’t show up. She didn’t show.
AMY GALLO: She ghosted?
HARPER: Yeah. And this is something that I did realize is that I’m not afraid to ask for what I want. I think that comes with having a really close-knit group of friends and also teachers who are really good people. Like, all of my asks were something that I felt that I would normally ask for. And actually I think that it brought me to saying no more.
AMY GALLO: Meaning you said no?
HARPER: Yeah, because I realized that all of my asks, I feel like if they said no, I would just either find another person to ask or it wouldn’t be a terrible thing, I would just adjust. I was thinking about this, like, why is it so easy for me to ask for things? And I think that you raised me with that idea that it’s okay to ask for things. You’ve definitely taught that to me.
AMY GALLO: I’m having a proud mom moment that I raised you to ask for things, but I honestly can’t remember ever telling… Well, I can imagine. I remember coaching you to ask for things, but what did you see me ask for that made you feel comfortable?
HARPER: Yeah, a lot of different things. I think that it varies from, like, asking me and my dad to just take Emmett for a walk, our dog, or make dinner because you’re too busy. Or even I’ve heard you on the phone with credit card companies and airplane companies, all these different places just asking for things. It was through example of just seeing you ask for what you want and get it.
AMY GALLO: I do get it.
HARPER: You do get it.
AMY GALLO: This is reinforcing is that when you ask and you actually get it, then it feels so much easier—
HARPER: Totally.
AMY GALLO: —to ask.
HARPER: Totally.
AMY GALLO: The other thing I wanted to ask you—well, I want to confess to you, is that I did say in my conversation with the women who did this exercise that most of my nos came from you.
HARPER: Oh, really?
AMY GALLO: Yes. And so I’m smiling thinking that for you, part of the exercise was getting better at saying no. But I mean, of course the reasons it’s easy to say no to me.
HARPER: Wait, I’m curious, what did I say no to?
AMY GALLO: I didn’t document, I wasn’t as good as you—Harper has a whole list here with yes and nos and dates. I’m sure it was asked to help clean up, which you have no problem saying no to.
HARPER: All right.
AMY GALLO: And I think I asked you to be ready on time for something, and you didn’t say no, you just weren’t ready on time. I think you ignored the request and then just went on with your days.
Well, here’s a question. If we think about that warmth and assertiveness combination, how could I ask you in a way that combines those things that would get you to say yes more often?
HARPER: Hmm.
AMY GALLO: I wish all our listeners could see the smirk on your face right now, as if you know there’s no way you can ask that warmly.
HARPER: [Laughter] No, I think that you could present it as in why it would be helpful to you. Because I, a lot of kids, I’m sure kids can relate to this, where, when you ask those kinds of questions over and over again, it gets very easy to say no. Whereas if—
AMY GALLO: Or ignore them.
HARPER: —you’re like, “Hey, I really want to be on time for this. I told my friend that we’d be there at this certain time. Can you please be ready?” I think that I’d be a lot more inclined if you gave a little bit more of an explanation.
AMY GALLO: Thank you for doing this. Also, now would be a really good time to ask for what you want for Christmas.
HARPER: I did really want a weighted blanket. I think that’s the top of my list. I like to be cozy.
AMY GALLO: I know you do.
So, what’s on your work wish list? Take a page from Alison’s collecting nos exercise and start asking for more of what you want. As you’ve heard today, the process of asking, not just whether you get a yes or a no, can reshape your view of what’s possible.
And that’s a wrap on Season 10. This season Amy B and I have covered so much— anxiety, AI, caregiving, career changes—with more audience participation than ever, which we love.
While we take a couple months off from publishing new episodes, now is the perfect time to revisit old favorites. If you’ve never listened to Respect for Any Body Size or Work Friendships Are Mostly Amazing and Sometimes Messy, those are two of my old favorites. I hope you’ll check them out.
If you don’t already receive the free monthly Women At Work newsletter that I write, consider signing up at HBR.org/newsletters. That’s HBR.org/newsletters. And if you’re looking to give an ambitious friend or family member a practical, valuable gift for the holidays, consider a subscription to HBR, HBR.org/subscriptions.
Okay. While you hear Amy B and I on this show, there is an entire team behind us that makes this all happen. So, Women at Work’s editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Tobey Mack, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.
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